Putting your own estimation of the weight of those actions simply show that you have a misperception of Gods holiness by thinking the bar of the law is set so low that your sins arent as repugnant as someone elses. He might have even qualified to have his criminal record expunged. They were fine with either term but actually preferred alky. So in deference to their preferences its what Ive used ever since then. Velda Deene Strasner Sproul Obituary With heavy hearts, we announce the death of Velda Deene Strasner Sproul of San Angelo, Texas, who passed away on January 24, 2021 at the age of 88. And even if they want it sometimes its too difficult. They will not change who the man fundamentally is. so ridiculous. I drove to the hospital right after shutting off the gas and water at our house. After awhile, even when things settle down, one can still feel the same sort of anxiety. He said I was his first patient to do that and he complies since he knew we are medical people and could spot a problem with a clot. Bridget wrote: The surgeon told me no steel plate because if my body had rejected it, I would not have survived a second surgery to remove the plate. (Is this still considered true? EVERYBODYS DOING IT! (I actually read something recently that was talking about dry January or something to reset your tolerance and although Im sure that wouldnt be promoted by some, it seems like not a bad idea as far as making sure you dont actually have a problem.) Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. I know its hard, I do cry for strength, I dont always like him for the damage done to our family. 3. Today, JUNE 21, 2017, the Huffington Post ran an article called, THE SUPER PREDATORS: Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. I dont recall anyone saying addictions alone warranted anyone being kicked out. I speak from some experience on this. It didnt sober him up but its good for maintenance of the recovery. And she showed that she had no clue what kinds of intervention should be done for an alcoholic (or substance abuser) in getting them into treatment and getting help for their spouse and children. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; However its ten times harder hearing the discouragement in others voices. That would be difficult, but more likely to lead to a successful recovery, ISTM. RC2 sponsors keggers for staff in which alcohol is served to CHILDREN!! I did a poor job of hearing you through all your pain, a pain which is very genuine and proper considering all the terrible things youve likely been through. We dont have money for the hanger-ons those that are faking it bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. It is always a pleasure to read her advice on legal/medical/mental matters, as her experience clearly shows. Then it is up to the people who see this going on to stop it. the accusations surrounding JR and his church. Hi Scott, what a thoughtful comment. My wife walked this bumpy road with me and patiently ignored me when I reacted out of hurt. I said on my blog that the TOPIC itself was banned, which I find detrimental to women who are in abusive relationships (whether marriage, friendship, at work, etc). Nothing in life is full-proof. Velour, we get your point (how could we fail to see it when youve made it so many times?). Sproul Jr.s excommunication. With the prevalence of addictions, including in women (and that includes older women), the solution in my opinion isnt to kick them out of the church but to come alongside them and get them (and their families) help. An alcoholic likewise has little or no control over his drinking by definition. I think it is best to take this argument back a bit. Neither one of us are church goers and our family is no overly religious. If you have a problem, cut it out or abstain. Sadly those poor folks he advised not to take their medicines were far more intelligent and realistic than Sproul Jr. One of the grandparents of my generation has relatively early dementia-the same thing that killed his mother and the same disease that has now stricken him. To my shame I must say that we have been weak by comparison. ), seems to me that enabling is not the same thing as really helping So Ill start to believe that RC is repentant when he contacts me personally to confess and repent of all the damage he caused me and my family. Yes, it would be nice to if Lisa would clarify what she knows about the kind of counseling that R.C. My guess is not because RC Jr has a long history of feigning submission for the sake of appearance. Here is a link to the DSM-V Criteria (manual for Psychiatric disorders) for Alcohol Use Disorder: RC Sproul Jr has destroyed the lives of quite a few people with alcohol, especially young men who are insecure in their manhood. Is it only Christ? So Velour, I ask you to please withdraw your false statements about what we do on A Cry For Justice. Should alcoholics and drug addicts be enabled? I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? Whoa, what? Sigh. Its so embarrassing on top of everything else. She may have been confused and thought I wrote that I myself have been banned from your blog, which I never wrote or said. From 1 Cor. Id also add that AA, in the case of one of my family members, after he stopped drinking, contributed to his so-called stinking thinking. I just dont know any. Hopefully someone close to Lisa Sproul is following this thread and may encourage her to attend. RC Jr never did start his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. So wrong on both counts. I do agree with George because I believe that scripture passage is the Word of God. There are many new ones and perhaps they are better at helping people. Like RC, none of us can dictate to our grown children how to live their lives. Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. More than likely his therapy is with someone lacking the qualifications, such as a pastor fan-boy giving him counseling. Also, it might be reasonable to assume that since Lisa didnt specifically state that RC Jr had an AA or CR sponsor hes probably not in an alky support group. (And we are all frustrated with the double standards we have seen!!) He got a $350 fine and 250 hours of community service. Thank you for sharing such a beautiful story, Friend. was immature. To me, the urgency should be to get him out of ministry leadership entirely. Name me one church and one case that has carried out Biblical Church Discipline correctly. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? But putting him out of the church does not stop him getting that assistance. Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. I am so sick of hearing excuses. Or just the general run of the mill people who support patriarchy (because its what they are used to being taught)? The household finances are frequently a wreck too. I would because its factoring into your misunderstanding or assumptions about Barbaras first post to this thread. Part of the real men drink beer and bourbon are two favorites at church picnics. This just goes to show what can happen when you have related people working in a ministry like this. The only way he could/would ever do this would be by the power of God giving him the grace and strength. Hi VELOUR, Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. But we were in a semi-rural small town exurb and life is like that in smaller circles. It is perfectly fine for you to believe that. I had typical teen issues, and was so thankful (and still am) to find forgiveness through Christ. Ive read a lot of pushback to AAs all or nothing approach recently. More than likely his therapy is with someone lacking the qualifications, such as a pastor fan-boy giving him counseling. Also, it might be reasonable to assume that since Lisa didnt specifically state that RC Jr had an AA or CR sponsor hes probably not in an alky support group. Remember Ashley Madison? But to say that is what is causing him to stumble? She was in a very fragile place. Basically, he lied. This only applies if you are a member of the in-crowd. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. Everyone has a personal sin story and can relate to being separated from God at one time or another, but to take advantage of that personal sin account without repentance and restoration of important family/friend relationships makes Gods grace cheap. I think you are misunderstanding me. Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant of a person he is and how quick he is to admit his failures. Unfortunately, it means humbling yourself and opening up your family to public inspection. Nice story about your father, Brian. The Church is to restore those who are struggling in sin not not shoot them. I wouldnt wish it on RC Jr. For the first time ever, Ive got the first comment, all the way from England. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. In my comments, in case you missed them, I also talked about the importance of churches seeking professional advice for dealing with pastors (or other members) who have substance abuse problems. Come to think of it, Id be pretty surprised if this plea deal/arrest didnt come with some sort of treatment required/AA. And I'm sure you didn't mean 'Alcoholism is an excuse to drink' I'm pretty sure you meant something like "Alcoholics use tragedy as an excuse to drink. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) Not impossible. They are likely growing up in a home with an alcoholic and will develop serious problems as the years go on. He allegedly also served children alcohol. the process that you just described: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pvpd6wCeM4. There is more than one issue going on with RC2: alcoholism, spiritual abuse, unrepentant heart, etc. Re Sproul, Im kind of with Jack in that its hard to have sympathy for him, because Ive seen too many other things that bother me. All people do. I very concerned that in this day and age with all of the resources available to help guide the church with handling serious problems including substance abuse that the only response that Barbara had was to kick Sproul out of the church. I do believe the Word of God is the Word of God and is far superior to anything we could ever dream up in our own minds. He held degrees from Westminster College (B.A., 1961), Pittsburgh . Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. The accusation about St. Peter Presbyterian Church being a cult and RC Sproul Jr being a cult leader was widely assumed for years in Bristol, Virginia especially among pastors in the area. This man, if all that is being said is true, is guilty of causing scandal-that is lots worse than just being some pitiful old drunk. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). That is an exaggeration and overstatement. I am not giving him a pass on his abusive behavior. I think theres a mixing of apples and oranges here, and its been going on since the very start of this thread. (Besides if it were my ex-pastor, and he was working with a sponsor in a 12-step program, my name would eventually make it to the 9th Step list of the people he had harmed and had to make amends to!). A lot of injury can be done by someone driving under the influence of alcohol. That she didnt address him getting treatment does not necessarily mean she is opposed to the idea. No, apparently all were agreement from the very beginning. I agree with R.C. She died after a 10-year battle with progressive supranuclear palsy, a rare neurological disease for which there is no cure and about which little is known. any man who drives drunk with his own children in the car has got more problems than just alcoholism, yes. People do not drink large amounts habitually and still live your best life now. I seems you didnt get the joke. After looking at the church website, I could find no indication that it was a Foursquare church; however, I did find this which has the same Pine Hills Church listed and has Foursquare shown at the top of the site. On 6/2/17,SpinderellaSproulpostedSpinderella Sproul: Lessons In Spin With RC Sproul Jr. Having failed tomeet the legal criteriaof having his criminal case accepted by the Allen County Drug Court, RC Sproul Jr appeared on June 2, 2017 in Allen County Indiana Superior Court before Judge Samuel Keirns for a pre-trial status conference. I am so relieved to be out of my ex-NeoCalvinist church/cult too. That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. because when a person is educated in ethical and moral behavior, they KNOW what it is and WHY departing from it is harmful and hurtful, so they are able to grow in examining their own conscience and responding accordingly .. they are able to listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and make course correction before making ship-wreck of their faith, I think solid Christian formation is far more productive and healing than the miserable anecdotes I hear about of Church discipline which seems so negative and punitive and results in public SHAMING, something that is very destructive for any person, Christian formation is education and the root of the word discipline is that one learns . And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. No one can make him do that. His boozing and chronic bully behavior was going on long before the family tragedies. It took rescue workers 2-1/2 hours to cut us out of the wreckage. Not impressed. Because I have had my nose rubbed in Sproul Jrs teaching for a couple of decades, I took my own understanding from what she said, quite the opposite of the one you seem to have taken. When you are in a bubble and surrounded by a bunch of other people buying into the same false information and teachers it can be hard to realize just how deceived the group and you are. These need compassion. Right. He is still employed and has his children. No excuses for it, ever. Thank you. I never found any of that helpful in coping with depression, anxiety, or grief after my mother died. Velour wrote: That sounds very Mark Driscoll-ian. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. Velour wrote: Nobody kicked her out. I am not against treatment, and Barbara did not say her opinion, so until she specifies, we cannot assume. You chose to believe your wrong assumption about Barbara and me. 2. a check forger, or I would tend to agree with her about this person, assuming that he has, as some have claimed, publicly and speaking from some position of religious prominence defended his actions. Login to find your connection. To say that I am very very concerned for the children hes given drink to, and his own children as well, is a huge understatement. That intervention meeting was more than a decade ago, and I know theories can change over time.) But to just say that someone with a drinking/substance abuse problem in the church should be publicly humiliated is NOT how substance abuse is supposed to be handled or treated. Horrific..emotionally, physically , life changing in every way. According to Ligonier Ministries: Dr. R.C. Had therapy and continues to do so. 4. That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. But there is very good help for many problems that has helped and changed peoples lives. Since many of his abuses of people appear to be in front of the entire church, than at some point in his recovery besides making individual amends he should be making public amends, with the help of a sponsor guiding him in the process. Barbara wrote this response to H.U.G. For those of us who've personally witnessed RC drunk it came as no surprise. It may be something as simple as a word like alky, spoken not in insult but merely used because its the word commonly used within their own circle. Ive been a ligonier for years . He was also driving at 30 mph for at least 2 miles with a flat tire on I-469. Have seen!! on to stop it or grief after my mother died harder! 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